Back to School with Jeremy Pang
What's the secret to a successful cooking school? Jeremy Pang, founder of School of Wok, lets us in on it.
This episode was hosted by Adrienne Katz Kennedy and produced by Lucy Dearlove.
You can find out more about Jeremy Pang at jeremypang.co.uk and his new book, Jeremy Pang’s School of Wok is out now, wok clock illustrations and all.
Ben McDonald creates original illustrations for Lecker - find them on the Lecker Twitter and Instagram.
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You can find out more about how to support Lecker (including one-off donations) at leckerpodcast.com/support.
Music is by Blue Dot Sessions.
Transcript below!
Jeremy Pang 00:00
We're in the basement. Depends how honest you want me to be really, but that used to be called The Rat cupboard. And the reason for that is because when we first came in, there was a family of rats who lived in this, what used to be an old accountants office.
Lucy Dearlove 00:18
This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove. Learning to cook is such an interesting thing. To me. This is often something I think about when I'm on TikTok, as countless cooking videos pop up on my FYP because never before in history have we had such frictionless access to videos of people cooking things. And it seems really logical to learn how to cook this way because cooking is such a physical activity. But when you consider cooking schools, which again, makes sense to learn this way, because it's such a physical thing...cooking schools tend to be quite serious and formal. In my mind, I always have a picture of stainless steel surfaces and industrial appliances. But what about a different kind of cooking school? One intended to try and meet people where they are in terms of their skills, their knowledge, and their kitchens. This is Jeremy Pang, who founded the School of Wok
Jeremy Pang 01:20
In the first week of us opening the f...one of the first ever customers we had was our landlords. And it was in their class that we saw a lovely friendly creature sort of run past the surveyor... and I didn't tell her because obviously our customers... so we distracted her with the beautiful food and then they had a lovely time and then the day after I sent her an email I said can you please sort this out, we've got a problem. So it's now not the rat cupboard. Anyway!
Lucy Dearlove 01:54
I love that that's what you started with
Jeremy Pang 02:00
This is...Adrienne's going like...what the. Right. Anyway, let's get over the rat story. Welcome to School of Wok.
Lucy Dearlove 02:11
On this episode, I'm handing over the hosting to my friend and collaborator, the food writer, Adrienne Katz Kennedy. Adrienne and I headed down to the school of work together, so she could interview Jez, an old friend of hers.
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 02:25
I met Jez about 12 years ago or so. I was managing a cookery school in Marylebone. And he and his business partner walked in looking for some place to hire to do some cookery classes.
Lucy Dearlove 02:43
Right. And then he poached you.
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 02:45
And then he poached me. It's great.
Jeremy Pang 02:49
The concept at the beginning was very much...I can teach you, anyone in three hours, you can pick three dishes, any food that you've ever eaten in a Chinese restaurant, I'll teach you how to cook, which was quite a big concept. Because I mean, I couldn't cook any, like every single dish that every single Chinese restaurant in the UK has ever offered. I didn't know...
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 03:13
That's asking a lot from you!
Jeremy Pang 03:16
Yeah, and people did! Most people will not you know, they'd ask for like, an egg fried rice, and sweet and sour pork and, and maybe a crispy chili beef or something like that. But and to be fair, I've never even cooked a crispy chili beef in my life before opening School of Wok. But I knew, like because of my upbringing, my dad and my, my dad was definitely more of the wok sort of like sort of Chef and he at home. And, you know, I learned a lot from him growing up. Not that he taught me, he just just showed me...he was just like, watch son, watch. And you'll learn. Very quickly after opening in 2009 and teaching sort of friends of friends. I think it took about six months for most of my customers...55% of the customers after six months are coming from Google searching for Chinese cooking lessons. In London.
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 04:10
There was quite a thirst for home cooking at that time thought, with recession and kind of moving away from restaurant entertaining and to home entertaining.
Jeremy Pang 04:20
It was, it was
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 04:21
Sounds like it was serendipitous.
Jeremy Pang 04:23
I think you're right. I think the recession helped me start this business, which is a weird thing to think about. You know, I was like 25...what do I do? I'd lost my job on the day of my dad's burial and then came back home to a recession...couldn't find a job in corporate again. I was in marketing and PR, marketing mainly. You know, my my wife basically said to me, Well, why don't you teach cooking and I that's how it started. And then now like looking, what, 13 years back? I think the concept of School Of Wok hasn't changed that much. But what we did when we stepped foot in here was we got rid of the 'we'll teach you anything, it's your choice'. It was more like no, we have to build menus into each one of the classes. Because otherwise it was just not manageable. If everyone wants to learn something completely different in the same class, it's just not manageable at all. At that time, it was mainly Chinese still. But what we did was we split them at the very beginning, because we'd been to lots of Western cooking classes. We split them like they did. And that was like knife skills or wok skills or you know, but very quickly, we realized that didn't work for us that actually, we had to teach every class like you were cooking a normal meal at home. Like you wouldn't ever just focus at home on your knife skills, especially with Asian cooking you're like No, every, every class needs knife skills. Yeah, that's important, you know? So the first half an hour, every class now - and the format changed at that point in the first year I'd say - every half an hour of every class was... here, this is how you use a cleaver. Yeah, these are the reasons why a cleaver's so much more versatile in in many ways to a 20 centimetre chef's knife. Yeah. And then you move on to like, you're like your preparation is done. Let's make some lovely dumplings or whatever. And you get that sort of nice therapeutic feeling of like making something. It's like an immediate reward when you've made something you've never made before. And it looks beautiful in front of you. Yeah. And then you go into wok cooking and you get your adrenaline rush. Yeah. So over time, it changed to like, more like cuisine based. And we started to introduce more like Southeast Asian cuisines, you know, and things like that. And now we teach Chinese...alll Southeast Asian cuisines, Korean, Japanese, but it's taken us best part of 10 years to be able to introduce what I would say the UK mass audience would deem as newer cuisines here. And even then, most people, like, don't really know, like the...anything out of outside of a handful of most popular dishes from those places. Yeah, what we're teaching is like, not necessarily like how to cook one dish, like dish by dish of course, we do that in the classes. What we're teaching is more like, why I think Asian families, most Asian families I know, food is what brings us together, so and so it's like a cultural, like, a really positive cultural experience without being too focused on being Asian. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think that was important to me, because I mean, I was brought up at the best of both worlds. So but the best part of the Asian culture that I was brought up in was definitely the food and feasts that we had as a family. So to bring that to the world in a different way that that...I think that's why we've we've stayed here, other than the name being super cool. We've stayed there because we've got quite a unique way of delivering that.
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 08:07
The rat cupboard is now completely sealed up, totally safe and is in fact used as a cloakroom. School of Wok is close to the heart of Covent Garden, near Chinatown, on a quiet little alleyway that you wouldn't know existed if you weren't going there for a particular purpose.
Jeremy Pang 08:26
It's just behind Coutts bank is almost like a lost, lost Street and no one really knows it. It's here. And it's never really changed that way. But there are some nice like you know, the Harp, the pub down the road has been here for God knows how long. It was when we first started owned by a lovely old Irish lady who owned it for many, many years. And it's a little sort of community almost, yeah.
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 08:48
When Jez and his business partner Nev first went to view the school it was an accountants office. And the first room you walked into was just set up into little cubbies. So now it's the shopfront...you walk in, it's where classes will do their preparations, all of their knife skills. And then at the end, the tables are flipped around. So it's where everyone can enjoy their meal together at the end of the class. So at the back of the space, you have the kitchen, where the class will go into towards the end of the three hour period to watch the demonstration and then do all of the wok cooking
Jeremy Pang 09:28
When we got through to this back kitchen...this is when both Nev and I, my business partner and I were quite excited, I would say because this space was - in terms of an empty shell - how it currently feels. And so we came in here and they actually already had the skylights, I think...there's a lot of light that comes in here. Even though we're in central London, and we're surrounded by buildings. We get this sort of flood of light in here natural light and When we came in here we thought Oh yeah, we can definitely build a kitchen into here. And that's when we started thinking okay, this is more real than not. The basement downstairs was hard to figure out. But we sort of worked the design of school of wok backwards from this back kitchen. It's a weird shape, but it does, it does work and now, this is where we do a lot of filming for the school of wok YouTube channel. Of course, we need the space for a lot of pots and pans. And, yeah, you know, all the woks are under and like in the cupboards, you know, like but you can see woks dotted around everywhere and, you know, steam baskets, like all over the place.
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 10:39
The School of Wok is quite different than a lot of other professional or even recreational cookery schools in that it doesn't feel overwhelming. There's no big shiny appliances. For the most part, it's not a professional kitchen, it feels a lot more like a domestic space. The whole school of wok approach and Jez's approach is to make it relaxed, to make cooking fun, rather than task oriented. So I think the reason for the school being set up the way it is, is to make customers feel comfortable. So they're less intimidated by the skills that they're going to learn.
Jeremy Pang 11:32
What we wanted was an open space where every pod or kitchen pod felt like a, like a flat kitchen, like you don't require huge amounts of space to be able to cook beautifully, like good home food, home cooked food here. I mean, all the way round there's sort of single, or what we call like domino hubs, or induction hubs, because they literally are like a domino piece dotted around the outside of the kitchen. In the middle of the kitchen, there's an island with a...one...the only gas hub in school of wok. And then two domino induction hubs either side, I've got one gas wok hob in there, that's mainly for use on the YouTube channel. So that I've got a bit of versatility, but the whole concept with school of wok was I started teaching people in their own homes, how to cook Chinese food, when you teach in people's homes, you don't have a choice of what hob you have, so... and so it was either. I mean, I remember, Hannah, who's one of our staff has been a longtime her dad was one of my first ever customers. And they had in their old kitchen a ceramic hob, you know, old school 1970s style ceramic hob, you know, we cooked...like, all the stuff that we teach here today, we were cooking on that hob. And we worked out how, yeah. I am not a believer of like, you know, the traditional is always best, I think, I think it's a case of like, well, no, you use what you got. And you work it out from there. And first, when we put induction hobs into here, a lot of people don't how can you ever walk school without gas, a gas feed, we actually kept off the gasoline, we don't have a gas feed today, we just have a butane gas cylinder under this hob for that because because we capped off the gas feed quite confidently, yeah. For various reasons...commercially. We were at that point, we made a link with one of our sponsors who were really like it's sort of at the forefront of induction technology. And they said, Can you cook this stuff on induction and I said, Give me heat any type of heat and you can cook it. But also we thought actually no, it's a nice thing because it's modern, it's easy to clean down. But it's also we felt that most like modern like flats these days built with either electric or induction hubs. And so if we couldn't teach people how to use their own equipment, then we wouldn't succeed. Like there was a lot of cookery schools we used to dot around all of them before we opened here that had quite commercial industrial kitchens spaces that they were doing cooking classes in. Actually, we knew that customers going to those cook schools were quite daunted by standing it just even standing in an industrial kitchen environment and so we wanted this space to be as close to home as possible. And that has worked and that has never changed like we've always had that feeling of of whatever restrictions whether you feel may be at home you still have here but we're showing you that they're not really restrictions you can cook what you want as long as you've got a bit of heat here because once you can control heat and know how to control heat. You can you can cook on anything, yeah. The school of wok way for Pretty much like hands on cooking. So as much as possible, we explain little things here or there, or we give people like tips and tricks and how to be more confident on the walk, or how to get the best out cooking their Thai curries or whatever it might be. But like where possible, we'll, we'll take a guinea pig to demonstrate stuff from the group of customers, because that I believe, makes the whole group then much more confident that they can do themselves. When customers first walk in most of the time, most of the time, they don't know each other, in the first 10, 15 minutes, they can be quite quiet, and not really sort of get on like, you know, they're just a bit sort of scared of talking to each other. But but then the chef gets them involved, they start chopping they're really concentrating on not chopping their fingers off, you know, and then once they've gotten past the garlic, ginger and spring onion, then they're usually pretty comfortable and they start chatting to each other. You know, and then by that point out there when the prep preparing, it's actually quite, it's almost quite Zen in this in the sense it's quite, especially the public classes very relaxed, and but also everyone's really eager to learn, I'd say then it takes about, what, 45 minutes an hour or so at least before they might have to come in here and cook a curry or get a curry started. When they come in here they're like oh yeah, let's let's get cooking something, they've got that feeling. And then their chef, usually because of our style of cooking, like Asian cooking, there's a lot of it can be quite theatrical, in many senses. So and so they enjoy that, you know, the wok demonstrations, or even like intricacies of like how to get the best flavour out of a curry paste, you know, by sort of slowly frying it off. And, you know, all that sort of stuff is interesting, isn't it? Interesting, yeah. And that's part of the love of food, enjoy it, like, you know, some things are really quick, some things is much slower. And the slower things, you know, you enjoy that, you know, you give it that love and the quicker things you get that adrenaline rush,
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 16:58
As Jez was talking about the physicality and the joy you get from cooking in person, I was wondering how he helped to translate that to the cookbooks he writes.
Jeremy Pang 17:11
Cooking is extremely, like physical, everything is done by like hand eye coordination. And you know, muscle memory, the best place to do it is actually come in and take a class like, but even even watching a Cooking, cooking demonstration. Like is, is perhaps you're taking more in that 20 minutes than you might take in from reading the whole introduction to my book, you know, yeah, but but the what the books do is is they sort of they're sort of more prolonged effect of learning, you can go back to it. You can go into like pages that you've missed, or you might not remember everything that we've taught you in the class. That's why we think...we have things like the wok clock, because whether it's illustrated in a book or is stand- is sitting right in front of you on a table. It's very, like it's visually appealing. Like you see it and you go, Oh, that's so useful!
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 18:14
Do you want to explain what a wok clock is?
Jeremy Pang 18:16
Yes, yeah, so. So a wok clock I think I guess I've become a bit famous for, or school of wok has...it's like our way of explaining mise en place, but it's, you know, a round plate, you've got a round, everyone's got round plates at home. So that's your wok clock. And you start at 12 o'clock with your first ingredient. And then you go all the way round. So by the time you've done your 90% of your preparation, all your chopping and getting your sauces together, anything that you need to like soak, or cook, pre cook, you know, you've done all of that, then your recipes right there in front of you. And you know exactly what needs to go first, second, third, fourth, fifth. Yeah, that's what a wok clock is and it works a treat, not just with what cooking but any type of cooking and most people, most friends I know who who, like you know, read my recipes or books or whatever, that that's the thing that they take away is that is the wok clock and they're there...it just betters their cooking in general.
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 19:15
In Jeremy's other cookbooks, while the wok clock has been included, in his new book, Jeremy Pang's School of Wok, this is the first time where there is a visual illustration. It's done by Freya at the Brand New studio, who's worked with Jeremy on all of his books.
Jeremy Pang 19:31
I'll say the title of the dish and then explain the word clock. Yeah, fine. All right. So we've got a ginger and spring onion chicken from the School of Wok cookbook...really starts and finishes with the word clock so you do your preparation, you know any chopping and things like that in the first segment at 12 o'clock with spring onion, finely sliced spring onion, and then moving on for that, next to the spring onion. We've got some Ginger and Garlic, because I want my spring onion to go in first before my ginger and garlic to get nicely seared, get that flavour essence of the spring onion, ginger and garlic goes in. And then after that on the wok clock you've got your red onion so your harder vegetables, green peppers, whatever veggies you want really following on. And then you've got your chicken, which has been marinated, and that's in the recipe. So it's like pre marinated meat. After your harder vegetables, once your chicken's seared, then you've got the sauce because I always say that your sauce goes last in a stir fry you have sauce in two places, one in the marinade. And secondly, in for your actual stir fry sauce. And that sauce is made up in a little bowl or ramekin last on your wok clock with some chicken stock, oyster sauce, dark soy shall sing rice wine, and a bit of sesame oil. And so that can then all get poured into your stir fry right at the right time. And you don't hopefully have to go back to the recipe book and make this beautiful recipe book too messy. I always say that my job is simplify explanations of techniques, but not to simplify techniques. That makes sense! So if you find something like the wok clock it which for us is like gold dust because it's it's perfect for that because once you get used to creating your wok clocks, say you're cooking four or five completely different dishes in one night, for a little dinner party. Really, that gets broken down into four or five plates that you need to wash up at the end. As opposed to the whole kitchen being an absolute mess. Anyone who who's like really like uses our sort of teaching takes that on board like because it's so much easier. It's so much more pleasurable here, it's there to like visually have visual impact to go. Okay, now I've cooked two or three recipes from the book, perhaps I don't even need to read the method, I can just go straight to the ingredients list. And the wok clock. You know, know how to cook it. Yeah. Cooking in person is always better because it's more fun for sure. Yeah. And cooking should be fun. You know, or it can be a cooking it should be emotional, isn't it, you know, should you can cook when you're angry. It's a good time to cook you definitely get a cleaver out not for the wrong reasons. But like get a cleaver and a chopping board out and get some ginger and smash it because, like you that is like therapy there right there in front of you with it with a bit of ginger. You know, and well at the other day. And I wasn't last week I wasn't angry. But I was I had a had a stressful week. But my best friend came over from Miami. And like on Friday afternoon, I just set aside four hours just to cook whatever I wanted without a camera. Like without even any thought or need to take a photo of this beautiful food I was cooking. And I just put my headphones on put some music on and I just cooked like I cooked a banquet for like three of us. I said what do you want to eat and he said Chinese food of course. And I was like, Okay, fine. I'll cook it but yeah, not very often do I even cooked like lobster, like, you know, Ginger and spring onion lobster at home. But I haven't seen him for five years so and it's enjoyable.
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 23:38
Though Jeremy is a chef, he's not a chef in the restaurant sense. He's a teacher. So he's in a really unique position for a few different reasons. From working with you for so long. I felt like at the beginning there was a much smaller box that you were or the school was being shoved into, that it was, you were representing Chinese cookery as a whole or Chinese people as a whole rather than Jeremy Pang and the School of Wok and all of the people who have come through the doors and their version of what Yes, this could be this cuisine has been for them their influences that kind of thing.
Jeremy Pang 24:22
No, you are right. In that sense. I definitely was shoehorned into my, my background and my my place of origin, I guess. But
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 24:38
Which is here.
Jeremy Pang 24:39
But...yeah! you know, I was born in the UK. I was probably for the first 10 years of my life much more British than I was Chinese or seen to be, deemed to be. I only really started learning about Asian cuisine in Singapore when I lived in Singapore when I was 10 years old. I didn't like food at all for the first 10 years of my life. You know, because I just wanted to play, I found eating a chore, you know, and I didn't actually really see myself as being that Chinese. But over, like the last couple of decades, like, you change as you go forwards and you learn a lot more about your, your place of origin or your culture or whatever, but actually, even now, like my, my main thing is that I know how to cook good food, like, you know, this is it, I know how to teach it. So why does it matter where it comes from? It's just more about how tasty it is. You know, I know like the podcast Lecker, is like, It means tasty doesn't it Sehr lecker. And my German friend who lived with me and at university, you know, he used to teach me all these little things, little phrases, you know, so every, you know, every time I have a cuppa...eine Tasse heissen Tee, sehr lecker...a very tasty cup of tea, you know, but he's, I think that you go through phases in life. And you and when you come back to it, at the very beginning, I don't have any gripe about people trying to sort of stereotype me, I just know that that happens. And no matter whether...what culture you come from, there's always going to be people who do that, whether on purpose or by accident, and that's okay. Like, I'm kind of okay with that. I know that most people won't necessarily agree with that. A lot of people don't agree with that. But I'm okay with it. Because I was brought up with, in two cultures. And I, most of my friends are from all over the world. Yeah. Where I, perhaps have seen my profile change, or is actually I've taken control of that and gone, Okay, let me, let me put myself where I want to be. And that, although it... I've had moments of, like quite stressful moments, like trying to work out what I should be doing, or what society thinks I should be doing, I always come back to then taking control of it, and not caring what society thinks. And just doing what I feel is best. And that is like being myself, being kind and generous to others. And my way of doing it is sharing my talent with other people and showing them how they can do it for themselves. Yeah. And I think that's certainly gotten me in my media world to a much better place. I'm accepted in the industry and respected in the industry for working hard and honing in my skill in communication.
Lucy Dearlove 25:36
It does, yeah.
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 27:31
How do you think your customers...what do you think the demands for authenticity are?
Jeremy Pang 27:39
Yeah it's a funny word authenticity isn't it.
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 27:41
Yes. Has it changed?
Jeremy Pang 27:45
Errr. No. Ahh...the demand from mass, like market customers, which definitely...it like, from the general public, for any type of product or service is nothing to do with authenticity in my mind. If you're, if you're teaching, like if you want to educate people in anything, you got to look at what people like. And they like, people like, especially when it comes to food, people like comfort food, things that make them feel comfort, nostalgia, for themselves, not for for someone else that they don't know from another country or country or culture. You know, so... authenticity to me is like what's authentic to that person that's coming to learn about Chinese food is what is what they've eaten from the Chinese culture, or from a Chinese takeaway, or restaurant, or perhaps a Chinese friend that there's cooked for them when they were younger?
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 28:49
How do you manage that, because that's the same level of ...sounds, I might be wrong, but that's the same level of expectation is pick three dishes that you've ever eaten before and I'll teach you how to cook them in that, like, having to cater somebody's experience that you may or may not really be aware of...
Jeremy Pang 29:07
Yes and no, because after three years even before opening the doors here in central London, and doing that service 80% of the time, people will pick the same dishes. You know, because in the UK and not just UK, any country there are only certain establishments that like you can go in, like they could go and get this food when they were growing up. And so they eat whatever was like available from those types of establishments, egg fried rice, sweet and sour pork, crispy chili beef, prawn toast, spring rolls, possibly like a sweet corn soup. Really like what I would deem is - other than Maybe a fried rice and sweet sour pork, which we would eat in a Chinese family at home - quite far away from a classic like real Cantonese meal, home meal. But Cantonese people, like Chinese people like myself, even though I was born here, we don't go to Chinese takeaways to eat dinner. We might own them, but we won't go to them. But even then, as kids, we also loved those things, we loved prawn toast we loved, you know, we loved sweet, proper, sweet and sweet and sour. And, you know, my, my mum and dad would scoff at us wanting to order it at a restaurant, but that's what we were wanting to eat.
Adrienne Katz Kennedy 30:44
It's interesting that you still have to play to what people know, you can't I mean, you...part of what you do is try to teach and kind of celebrate this openness around Chinese cuisine around Asian cuisines and how to make it accessible in domestic spaces with whatever you have. But then having to play to what people know, rather than what your family might eat at home.
Jeremy Pang 31:15
Yeah, right. But it's education, isn't it? You know, like, my, my oldest is first year at school, you know, he doesn't walk into school and suddenly start learning algebra, like, you know, like, that's a, like, you walk into school and you don't actually, they don't actually have maths lessons they have...they play games, to learn about maths. Like, if if you don't do that, in in an any other educational sort of environment and make it fun, then people won't want to learn, right? So you got to you got to...in my mind, no matter who you are. If you want to be able to do like, like teach people something, or show someone something they don't know. They need to be super comfortable about you doing that for them. If it means that cooking 1000 egg fried rices... I mean, I joke that I've been flown all over the country to teach someone how to cook an egg fried rice, like and like flown all over the world. In fact, I remember...this is funny. Like Nev my business partner, myself and Shannon one of our ex managers. We were flown over to Singapore, for a festival for wellness, a health and wellbeing festival about four or five years ago to teach Singaporeans how to make dim sum. I mean, like we are, I was the only Chinese person there. First and foremost, Nev my business partners. Like I joke that he's this, you know, this sort of chef from, from like, the West Country of UK, who's only ever taught even how to eat dimsum from me 10 years ago, by but we have a skill set. And that is we make people feel really comfortable and relaxed and want to learn and actually most people in Asia, like in Singapore, even Hong Kong, where dim sum is like the place to be. Do not know even like, like the first like sort of step on how to make a dumpling pastry. Right so that I mean, that's funny. I mean, I've I've flown over to Hong Kong just for one day just to teach an audience of like 1500 people how to make a fried rice or healthy fried rice. Because in Hong Kong people don't cook. Because they can get that fried rice for a couple of quid down the road. Why would they make it themselves? Yeah, it's it's an interesting concept. But but the point I'm getting at is like it's if and I'm getting closer and closer to being able to like, talk to huge audiences now. But it hasn't changed, like my way of talking to big audience or a small audience never changed, like and that is how do I make everyone in that audience feel comfortable and have a bit of fun. And that works it works.
Lucy Dearlove 34:31
This episode of Lecker was hosted by Adrienne Katz Kennedy and produced by me Lucy Dearlove. You can read Adrienne's writing and find out more about her on her website Adriennekatzkennedy.com And you can find out more about Jeremy Pang at Jeremy pang.co.uk and his new book Jeremy Pang's School of Wok is out now, wok clock illustrations and all. This month's Patreon exclusive episode is a conversation between myself and Adrienne about the making of this episode, which was something new for both of us. It was a really interesting process for me for various reasons. And you can listen to us talk about that by becoming a patron of Lecker for three pounds a month. That's at patreon.com/leckerpodcast. Lecker is entirely listener funded and patron subscriptions allow me to cover running costs like transcription and music library fees, but also hopefully do more collaboration like this in the future where I can pay co hosts and contributors fairly, which is really important to me. So if you've enjoyed hearing from Adrienne on this episode, then please do consider subscribing if you can afford to. Other ways you can support Lecker: rate and review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. Buy things from the Lecker Big Cartel site, I'll link that in the show description and just tell your friends. Music is by Blue Dot Sessions. Thanks to Ben McDonald, who did a fantastic illustration of Jeremy for this episode as he does for many of the Lecker episodes. You can see that on the Lecker Instagram and Twitter @leckerpodcast. And I know I've been away for a while but I've got loads more episodes to come over the next few weeks. some really exciting things, subscribe if you haven't already. And I'll be back in your feed very very soon.